Discussion:
History of Quatre-Epices
(too old to reply)
Brian Mailman
2010-01-27 21:36:50 UTC
Permalink
I'm looking for a history of the French "quatre-epices" (four spice
blend, usually pepper, cinnamon, clove, and allspice or ginger). I know
what it is. I know what it's used for. I know the variations (some
say it's half pepper and half the others, some say it's equal parts,
some say white pepper, some say black, some say a mixture).

What I'm looking for specifically if it's "indigenous" to farmhouse
Provence. It would seem from the composition it's a coastal thingum,
brought by Arab traders, but I'm looking for more inland.

Thanks!

B/
Arri London
2010-01-28 00:44:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Mailman
I'm looking for a history of the French "quatre-epices" (four spice
blend, usually pepper, cinnamon, clove, and allspice or ginger). I know
what it is. I know what it's used for. I know the variations (some
say it's half pepper and half the others, some say it's equal parts,
some say white pepper, some say black, some say a mixture).
What I'm looking for specifically if it's "indigenous" to farmhouse
Provence. It would seem from the composition it's a coastal thingum,
brought by Arab traders, but I'm looking for more inland.
Thanks!
B/
You could try here:
http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/quatre-%25C3%25A9pices and here:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%25C3%2589pice and maybe here:
http://www.lesepicesrient.fr/12/2008/melange-depices-5-parfums-origine-composition-utilisation/


Obviously anything from Wikipedia must be taken with a grain of salt :P
Brian Mailman
2010-01-28 20:40:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arri London
Post by Brian Mailman
I'm looking for a history of the French "quatre-epices" (four spice
blend, usually pepper, cinnamon, clove, and allspice or ginger). I know
what it is. I know what it's used for. I know the variations (some
say it's half pepper and half the others, some say it's equal parts,
some say white pepper, some say black, some say a mixture).
What I'm looking for specifically if it's "indigenous" to farmhouse
Provence. It would seem from the composition it's a coastal thingum,
brought by Arab traders, but I'm looking for more inland.
Thanks!
B/
both "Le titre de la page demandée est invalide" -- not found that is.
If those are the equivalent of the Anglaise pages, they'll not be useful
for me.
Post by Arri London
http://www.lesepicesrient.fr/12/2008/melange-depices-5-parfums-origine-composition-utilisation/
Thanks, but that one seems more concerned with the usage of 5-spice (the
Chinese blend) and composition. As I said, I know what quatre-epices is
(the 4-spice blend used in French cuisine), I know the composition (and
variations). And I know how it's used--what I'm looking for
specifically are the historic usage and in particular in Provence
country/farm cookery.
Post by Arri London
Obviously anything from Wikipedia must be taken with a grain of salt :P
Heh, as they say. Yah, I use Wikipedia for info sources, but I don't
take it as authoritive.

B/
Arri London
2010-01-28 23:30:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Mailman
Post by Arri London
Post by Brian Mailman
I'm looking for a history of the French "quatre-epices" (four spice
blend, usually pepper, cinnamon, clove, and allspice or ginger). I know
what it is. I know what it's used for. I know the variations (some
say it's half pepper and half the others, some say it's equal parts,
some say white pepper, some say black, some say a mixture).
What I'm looking for specifically if it's "indigenous" to farmhouse
Provence. It would seem from the composition it's a coastal thingum,
brought by Arab traders, but I'm looking for more inland.
Thanks!
B/
both "Le titre de la page demandée est invalide" -- not found that is.
If those are the equivalent of the Anglaise pages, they'll not be useful
for me.
Didn't read the English pages so can't help you there. Thinking the 'e'
of epice(s) got knocked off somehow. Sorry if it was my doing.
Post by Brian Mailman
Post by Arri London
http://www.lesepicesrient.fr/12/2008/melange-depices-5-parfums-origine-composition-utilisation/
Thanks, but that one seems more concerned with the usage of 5-spice (the
Chinese blend) and composition. As I said, I know what quatre-epices is
(the 4-spice blend used in French cuisine), I know the composition (and
variations). And I know how it's used--what I'm looking for
specifically are the historic usage and in particular in Provence
country/farm cookery.
There were other references to quatre-epices buried in the site,
otherwise wouldn't have given the link. What about 'Larousse
Gastronomique'? My copy is in a box somewhere, so not helpful right now.
Post by Brian Mailman
Post by Arri London
Obviously anything from Wikipedia must be taken with a grain of salt :P
Heh, as they say. Yah, I use Wikipedia for info sources, but I don't
take it as authoritive.
B/
Brian Mailman
2010-01-29 21:25:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arri London
Post by Brian Mailman
both "Le titre de la page demandée est invalide" -- not found that
is. If those are the equivalent of the Anglaise pages, they'll not
be useful for me.
Didn't read the English pages so can't help you there. Thinking the
'e' of epice(s) got knocked off somehow. Sorry if it was my doing.
Doing some searching around after a e-without-accent didn't work... the
first is pretty much the English page; the second one is helpful to
someone looking for more about spices in general.
Post by Arri London
Post by Brian Mailman
Post by Arri London
http://www.lesepicesrient.fr/12/2008/melange-depices-5-parfums-origine-composition-utilisation/
Thanks, but that one seems more concerned with the usage of 5-spice
(the Chinese blend) and composition. As I said, I know what
quatre-epices is (the 4-spice blend used in French cuisine), I know
the composition (and variations). And I know how it's used--what
I'm looking for specifically are the historic usage and in
particular in Provence country/farm cookery.
There were other references to quatre-epices buried in the site,
otherwise wouldn't have given the link.
What references, where? If you could cut and paste the text you're
referring to, I'd appreciate it. I only see descriptions, compositions,
utilizations, as the caption says--the origine is limited to a mention
of China and Vietnam. There seems to be some commentary about the
replacement of Sichuan pepper with black pepper, but there's nothing
like what I'm looking for. I admit that while I read French, I might
not be as influenza as some! So if you could point to the part that's
revelant to my quest? Thanks.
Post by Arri London
What about 'Larousse Gastronomique'? My copy is in a box somewhere,
so not helpful right now.
No, just the note it's in usage, and that every vendor makes a different
one.

B/
Arri London
2010-01-30 00:23:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Mailman
Post by Arri London
Post by Brian Mailman
both "Le titre de la page demandée est invalide" -- not found that
is. If those are the equivalent of the Anglaise pages, they'll not
be useful for me.
Didn't read the English pages so can't help you there. Thinking the
'e' of epice(s) got knocked off somehow. Sorry if it was my doing.
Doing some searching around after a e-without-accent didn't work... the
first is pretty much the English page; the second one is helpful to
someone looking for more about spices in general.
Post by Arri London
Post by Brian Mailman
Post by Arri London
http://www.lesepicesrient.fr/12/2008/melange-depices-5-parfums-origine-composition-utilisation/
Thanks, but that one seems more concerned with the usage of 5-spice
(the Chinese blend) and composition. As I said, I know what
quatre-epices is (the 4-spice blend used in French cuisine), I know
the composition (and variations). And I know how it's used--what
I'm looking for specifically are the historic usage and in
particular in Provence country/farm cookery.
There were other references to quatre-epices buried in the site,
otherwise wouldn't have given the link.
What references, where? If you could cut and paste the text you're
referring to, I'd appreciate it. I only see descriptions, compositions,
utilizations, as the caption says--the origine is limited to a mention
of China and Vietnam. There seems to be some commentary about the
replacement of Sichuan pepper with black pepper, but there's nothing
like what I'm looking for. I admit that while I read French, I might
not be as influenza as some! So if you could point to the part that's
revelant to my quest? Thanks.
Nah, you're on your own now :) I did my bit.
Post by Brian Mailman
Post by Arri London
What about 'Larousse Gastronomique'? My copy is in a box somewhere,
so not helpful right now.
No, just the note it's in usage, and that every vendor makes a different
one.
B/
You'd really need to look at some French books on historic cuisine.
Don't think you'd find what you want in English.
Brian Mailman
2010-01-30 20:41:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arri London
Post by Brian Mailman
Post by Arri London
Post by Brian Mailman
both "Le titre de la page demandée est invalide" -- not found that
is. If those are the equivalent of the Anglaise pages, they'll not
be useful for me.
Didn't read the English pages so can't help you there. Thinking the
'e' of epice(s) got knocked off somehow. Sorry if it was my doing.
Doing some searching around after a e-without-accent didn't work... the
first is pretty much the English page; the second one is helpful to
someone looking for more about spices in general.
Post by Arri London
Post by Brian Mailman
Post by Arri London
http://www.lesepicesrient.fr/12/2008/melange-depices-5-parfums-origine-composition-utilisation/
Thanks, but that one seems more concerned with the usage of 5-spice
(the Chinese blend) and composition. As I said, I know what
quatre-epices is (the 4-spice blend used in French cuisine), I know
the composition (and variations). And I know how it's used--what
I'm looking for specifically are the historic usage and in
particular in Provence country/farm cookery.
There were other references to quatre-epices buried in the site,
otherwise wouldn't have given the link.
What references, where? If you could cut and paste the text you're
referring to, I'd appreciate it. I only see descriptions, compositions,
utilizations, as the caption says--the origine is limited to a mention
of China and Vietnam. There seems to be some commentary about the
replacement of Sichuan pepper with black pepper, but there's nothing
like what I'm looking for. I admit that while I read French, I might
not be as influenza as some! So if you could point to the part that's
revelant to my quest? Thanks.
Nah, you're on your own now :) I did my bit.
Yeah, I understood the "I know but you don't and I'm really not
interested in sharing the knowledge" bit. Is why I asked you for a
specific text relevant to my question and not just telling me what I
already know.

But thanks, I'm sure those pages will be helpful to *someone,* so not a
total waste.

B/
Arri London
2010-01-31 01:18:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Mailman
Post by Arri London
Post by Brian Mailman
Post by Arri London
Post by Brian Mailman
both "Le titre de la page demandée est invalide" -- not found that
is. If those are the equivalent of the Anglaise pages, they'll not
be useful for me.
Didn't read the English pages so can't help you there. Thinking the
'e' of epice(s) got knocked off somehow. Sorry if it was my doing.
Doing some searching around after a e-without-accent didn't work... the
first is pretty much the English page; the second one is helpful to
someone looking for more about spices in general.
Post by Arri London
Post by Brian Mailman
Post by Arri London
http://www.lesepicesrient.fr/12/2008/melange-depices-5-parfums-origine-composition-utilisation/
Thanks, but that one seems more concerned with the usage of 5-spice
(the Chinese blend) and composition. As I said, I know what
quatre-epices is (the 4-spice blend used in French cuisine), I know
the composition (and variations). And I know how it's used--what
I'm looking for specifically are the historic usage and in
particular in Provence country/farm cookery.
There were other references to quatre-epices buried in the site,
otherwise wouldn't have given the link.
What references, where? If you could cut and paste the text you're
referring to, I'd appreciate it. I only see descriptions, compositions,
utilizations, as the caption says--the origine is limited to a mention
of China and Vietnam. There seems to be some commentary about the
replacement of Sichuan pepper with black pepper, but there's nothing
like what I'm looking for. I admit that while I read French, I might
not be as influenza as some! So if you could point to the part that's
revelant to my quest? Thanks.
Nah, you're on your own now :) I did my bit.
Yeah, I understood the "I know but you don't and I'm really not
interested in sharing the knowledge" bit. Is why I asked you for a
specific text relevant to my question and not just telling me what I
already know.
Not here to do your work for you. When I have a research topic, I do my
own work. As should you.
Post by Brian Mailman
But thanks, I'm sure those pages will be helpful to *someone,* so not a
total waste.
B/
They are useful to you as well, if you take a good look.
Brian Mailman
2010-02-01 03:10:10 UTC
Permalink
Arri London wrote:

(massive snip).

Thanks for all the help you've provided. I'm sure you haven't intended
to come across as a fella with his pants on the ground.

B/
Arri London
2010-02-02 01:21:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Mailman
(massive snip).
Thanks for all the help you've provided. I'm sure you haven't intended
to come across as a fella with his pants on the ground.
B/
ROTFL! With an attitude like that, no one is ever going to answer your
questions again.
Dragonblaze
2010-01-30 13:41:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Mailman
I'm looking for a history of the French "quatre-epices" (four spice
blend, usually pepper, cinnamon, clove, and allspice or ginger).  I know
  what it is.  I know what it's used for.  I know the variations (some
say it's half pepper and half the others, some say it's equal parts,
some say white pepper, some say black, some say a mixture).
What I'm looking for specifically if it's "indigenous" to farmhouse
Provence.  It would seem from the composition it's a coastal thingum,
brought by Arab traders, but I'm looking for more inland.
I found something like it in Le Menagier de Paris: "ginger, cinnamon,
clove and long pepper..." This Medieval MSS is from 1393 and an
English translation can be found here:
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Cookbooks/Menagier/Menagier_Contents.html

Scroll down to the recipe of Meat Tiles to see this combination.
Brian Mailman
2010-01-30 20:50:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dragonblaze
Post by Brian Mailman
I'm looking for a history of the French "quatre-epices" (four spice
blend, usually pepper, cinnamon, clove, and allspice or ginger)...
What I'm looking for specifically if it's "indigenous" to farmhouse
Provence. It would seem from the composition it's a coastal thingum,
brought by Arab traders, but I'm looking for more inland.
I found something like it in Le Menagier de Paris: "ginger, cinnamon,
clove and long pepper..." This Medieval MSS is from 1393 and an
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Cookbooks/Menagier/Menagier_Contents.html
Scroll down to the recipe of Meat Tiles to see this combination.
Great, fascinating schtuff. It seems the Ashkenazi (European-descended)
Jewish kugel is very old indeed... similar in a very high degree to the
"cretonne" descrbied. Unfortunately, nothing like what I'm looking for,
which is whether or not quatre-epices is used in *traditional* Provencal
farmhouse cookery.

Thanks for suggesting it, though.

B/
jasminesolis
2010-03-18 08:16:37 UTC
Permalink
;1432084']I'm looking for a history of the French "quatre-epices" (fou
spice
blend, usually pepper, cinnamon, clove, and allspice or ginger). I kno
what it is. I know what it's used for. I know the variations (some
say it's half pepper and half the others, some say it's equal parts,
some say white pepper, some say black, some say a mixture).
What I'm looking for specifically if it's "indigenous" to farmhouse
Provence. It would seem from the composition it's a coastal thingum,
brought by Arab traders, but I'm looking for more inland.
Thanks!
B/
Well,i didn't know it.But i know something about Chinese tea and te
history.
take tieh kuanyin tea for example:Anxi Tieguanyin tea belongs to
family of teas from southern Fujian Province called Ming Nan Oolong.
It is characterized by light oxidation and heavy rolling. Using th
baorou technique, it is wrapped in cloths and rolled into tightl
knitted balls.
These balls are so dense that they are often described as iron-like. I
has a glossy appearance, with granulated green color, red spots an
white frost.
It has a unique taste called Guanyin Rhyme (Yin Yun), which can b
described as outstanding orchid fragrance and nectar sweet taste.
Scientists found that the Tieguanyin tea plant's succulent leave
contain the highest level of aromatic substances, especially at low t
medium temperature.
For those who have difficulty grasping the subtleties of high grad
greens, this oolong tea may seem "god-sent". Its orchid aroma is strong
lasting and after many infusions, simply intoxicatin


--
jasminesolis
Brian Mailman
2010-03-19 01:49:25 UTC
Permalink
;1432084']I'm looking for a history of the French "quatre-epices" (four
spice
blend, usually pepper, cinnamon, clove, and allspice or ginger). I know
what it is. I know what it's used for. I know the variations (some
say it's half pepper and half the others, some say it's equal parts,
some say white pepper, some say black, some say a mixture).
What I'm looking for specifically if it's "indigenous" to farmhouse
Provence. It would seem from the composition it's a coastal thingum,
brought by Arab traders, but I'm looking for more inland.
Thanks!
Well,i didn't know it.But i know something about Chinese tea and tea
history.
That's nice. You should read the 3rd in the "Master Li" series by Barry
Hughart.

But to get back to the topic of *this* thread, it doesn't matter any
more. I went ahead and used it in the savory dish I was researching,
and again in the cognac-soaked raisins I served with the walnut tart.

B/

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